Arizona Bouldering & Climbing

O.K. I have tried to post several times on Mountain Project and the site keeps telling me that I have not sent my confirmation email. There is a thread there titled Goodbye Tamo that you all should take a look at.

 

From what I have read and heard RCC is thinking of taking Tamo completely off the table. The view they have is that climbers don’t want Tamo and have taken opposition to it. Enough climbers have said negative things and have attacked Tamo that RCC feels Tamo is not worth their time or money. They are getting off the hook. They can say "We tried to work with the climbers and they refused. Nothing we could do." In the public eye they made the effort.

 

The land swap is not dependent on whether or not Tamo happens, however Tamo is dependent on whether or not the swap happens. So as it stands we as climbers are facing the possibility that we may lose Oak Flats and not get anything in return.

 

I view the situation we are in as I do auto insurance. I pay auto insurance IN CASE I get into an accident (and because it is required by law). Just because I pay it does not mean I support car accidents or insurance companies. Quite the contrary, also just because I pay insurance I am not guaranteed to get a car as good as the one I had. I might get the same car but no 22’s and where the hell is the amp?!! But at least I put a protocol in place that would get me a car rather than nothing but a bus pass.

 

Same with Tamo. Oak Flats is our nice car with all the sweet modifications we made. RCC is that drunk dumb a$$ in a Kia that slams into you and totals your ride. The accident is the land swap. The insurance is Tamo. Maybe not as sweet as the ride you had but at least you got a ride.

 

I do not want to lose Oak Flats and I think that there are some serious environmental issues that need to be dealt with. There are also access issues to areas that may be affected by the mining. The area may not be destroyed but the ingress and egress may be destroyed. The loss of access is tantamount to the loss of an area.

 

My position.

 

1. I do not want to see Oak Flats destroyed and I don’t want the mining to occur.
2. IF the swap occurs and the mining proceeds then I want it done with the least amount of environmental impact and land loss possible. That means taking the mine to task on environmental issues and forcing RCC to mine responsibly. And as Fred has said GET IT IN WRITING.
3. IF the swap occurs and RCC still has Tamo on the table I want a team of AZ climbers to have a protocol in place to insure that Tamo is what AZ climbers want and not what someone else has decided for us. That means working on it now before the possible swap. Yes I do want to be on that team.

Does this mean I support the mine and the destruction of Oak Flats? HELL NO!!! This means that in the event that something really crappy like the swap happens then we have a back up plan.

 

If we can stop the mine we should, but we should also be mindful that the possibility for the mine to succeed is there and plan for it. Hope for the best and plan for the worst.

 

Sorry about the long thread.

 

Jav

I've read most of that thread.  Just to be clear, i am in no way supporting the loss of oak flat, but there has been a lot of people that wont even listen to the idea of tamo, when loosing oak flats is a close reality.  I'd hate to loose access to all of those unfinished projects in QC, the idea of that sucks, but that doesn't mean we can't pursue trying to get rcc to use less impactful methods of mining AND get access to tamo.  Unfortunately, it may not matter anymore.  Yeah, we can get to tamo legally now, but how may people have persued that?  Its not easy.  Not many climbers have that desire to hike and offroad all day to get to a crag.

btw, good car analogy!

1. The RCC is smart... They are not legionaires of choss and refuse to support the establishment of more laughable choss.

2. It will kinda suck to lose QC. I admit, I have become more and more fond of the climbing, bleeding, and flappering that the place entails.

3. Mining is good-- it contributes to the state economically. Being a whining hippy about it won't solve anything when there are BILLIONS at stake under QC. Opposition groups are fine and dandy-- they unite people and give them some feeling of efficacy, but the fact is that, in the end, money makes the world go round.

smart is right - they used political savvy to get what they wanted, baited other user groups with fairly cheap trades, induced divisions within the main user group of the area (climbers) so that they were unable to mount an effective protest. moreover, those same divisions have made climbers so ambivalent about tamo that (according to javier) climbers will lose that too.

Based on Hueco and most of the other area's Fish knows about, I'd reccomend a climbing video on the area to help over-sensationalize the place.

I am in no way against Tamo but this area not becoming accessible will in turn benifit the numerous limestone route climbing area's that are in the same region as Tamo..  Bad roads lead to less impact.

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Cause you'll never know till you've got the bone.

I did always wonder why they wanted to invest a lot of coin into Tamo when there was good limestone like the Homestead close by. Why not just make those areas more accessible?

I guess they wanted to give us something new, as a trade off.

Fish you bring up a good point. (Quick everyone check the temps in Hell)

I have wondered why we the climbing community were not given a choice as to what we wanted IF the deal happend. I don't remember RCC saying "We have these choices, what do you all think and want?" I can only reason that it was due to the fact that climbers refused to go to the table and discuss conditions and terms with RCC. Now we have to choose between 1. scraping the whole Tamo deal, 2. accepting what they decide or 3. getting involved and make sure that IF the deal occurs we have a back up plan we like.

Fish as you said opposing the mine is a huge task especially with the vast economic potential for the State. However, they have failed 3 times thus far to acquire the land. So that IF is a lot bigger than we think. With the money that is on the table you would think this deal would be a slam dunk. The first words out of the Govs mouth were "How many jobs and how much revenue?" In a State with a budget crisis the creation of a new high dollar mine is a no brainer. But, as I said RCC has failed so far.

In any case I think it would be a shame not to have a back up plan in the event they do succeed.(Even if it is for a choss pile Fish, but I do remember you having a pretty damn good time leading there.)

What about having a Friends of Tamo created to help the support the idea of getting something in return for a potential loss at QC?  If RCC is thinking that climbers do not want anything in return, perhaps this group can show that there is interest in working with RCC and the state IF the land swap goes through.

Fish wrote:

I did always wonder why they wanted to invest a lot of coin into Tamo when there was good limestone like the Homestead close by. Why not just make those areas more accessible?

I guess they wanted to give us something new, as a trade off.

I've already worked hard to dodge this bullet, Homestead is better with the 4wd part.  Its access couldn't be any more desirable than it is now.

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Cause you'll never know till you've got the bone.

JBone wrote:

Fish wrote:

I did always wonder why they wanted to invest a lot of coin into Tamo when there was good limestone like the Homestead close by. Why not just make those areas more accessible?

I guess they wanted to give us something new, as a trade off.

I've already worked hard to dodge this bullet, Homestead is better with the 4wd part.  Its access couldn't be any more desirable than it is now.

 

What the hell are you smokin????? I am sure EVERYONE with a 2wd vehicle or anyone that has made that horrific approach (walking the whole road) would like better access to that area. IMO, it seems as if you want to significalty limit the people there to climb routes. Whats up with that?

The road is the MAIN reason I have not been back to the homestead.

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my life would be so much easier if I didnt have to get out of bed.

I agree Joe, the access is a huge issue for me and my family. If there was a 2wd road I would be there quite a bit. The climbing is awesome it just sucks to get there.

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the current access cross through private land? If that's the case then converting the road and having more people climbing there might lead to it's closing. That might be the angle Bone is looking at.  The only way the road could be converted would be to purchase a license from the owners or buy the portion of land. Maybe we shouuld have made demands like these to RCC. This is the stone we like now fix the access.

JBone wrote:

Fish wrote:

I did always wonder why they wanted to invest a lot of coin into Tamo when there was good limestone like the Homestead close by. Why not just make those areas more accessible?

I guess they wanted to give us something new, as a trade off.

I've already worked hard to dodge this bullet, Homestead is better with the 4wd part.  Its access couldn't be any more desirable than it is now.

Jbone - for those of us not privy to your inner dialogue, could you help us understand how the current access to the homestead "couldn't be any more desirable"? I'm not critiquing, I just don't understand.

AIght, I'll try to explain my reasoning but I will admit,  years ago I woulda been onboard the general publics opinion many of you guys seem to have atm.

#1  Javier is right, the 4wd part is on private land, we currently are allowed to use it but altering it without consent would lead to the same issue's cutting the barb wire gave us at El Cap.

#2  Homestead is a very unique crag in that we have promoted a strict no chipping, drilling, glueing policy that has remained for over 8 years now.  It has been easier to do this because the traffic level is unique here and we have been able to communicate with the people who have made efforts to contribute to the routes there.  If Access was easier then traffic would at the least triple and since there is still potential for nearly 200 more routes there which could possibly cross the line of these standards.

#3  Parking.  If you have been to the Homestead you are aware that the final parking area can hold approximately 6-8 vehicles.  Thanks to coordinating of groups who go there we try to carpool from the campground which helps reduce this as an issue and allows for vehicles to still have access to and from the parking area.  Making the road 2wd would make this a bigger issue than its ever been on Homestead's busiest days.

#4  Camping.  The campgorund would have to be enlarged to handle 2wd access.  I have already seen the impact the camping area has reulted in over the last 8 years, you now have to drive 10 min or so away form the camping area to find dead wood to burn.  The camping area has some history to it.  At one time someone put quite alot of work into making it a lifestock area and many relics can still be found among the debris. All of this must be changed if 2wd access was enabled.

#5  Homestead was established by the locals long before any QC resolution was known about.  We have spent alot of our own time and money to put this work into this crag to keep it the standard we have up till now.  When I was in Hueco I heard John was considering using Homestead as the replacement to QC and I made my way quickly to Phoenix to find out and to argue the point that we would not be replacing QC with a new crag we would only be diverting the public to an already existing crag.

#6 And my last point here.  Many walls are still left to be established at Homestead and cleaning of the routes can sometimes involve major rockfall.  If access was enabled and if we even had a double in the traffic that currently goes there this would slow development significantly. 

Perhaps 10 years from now when this crag is more developed we can entertain an easier access but if you go to Homestead now, you will learn to appreciate the condition it is in and begin to see how the daily impact is slowly changing that.  Like many limestone caves, this kind of rock is very beautiful and fragile.  Careless use does damage the features  which have taken thousands, if not millions of years to create.   The Tufa that form here are very unique in that there is no other crag that is so established in the state that offers this unique type of climbing.  With respect to that we must consider the effects of impact to a higher degree as our respect for the rock is infinate for those of us who call Homestead our home crag.

Now I really don't understand the big issue with the road being 4wd.   Like I have mentioned many times before, I did not even own a car when Homestead was first established yet I put up the first routes on most of the walls myself.  Many out of staters are currently making the trip from as far away as Canada and its even starting to become a conversational piece to some euro's.  I have taken Phoenix climbers there but honestly, most of the climbers in Phoenix are boulder'ers, at least the ones I see regularly, and most of the time the climbers are looking for more comfortable climbing than Homestead offers.  I have made a guide available for free for over 5 years now and by no means do I think people shouldn't go there, I do however think that not everybody should go there at the same time. 

At the moment the unique access is helping and these are the primary reasons why I think this.  I encourage each and every one of you to go visit this gemstone of a crag and get the opportunity to see and experience what it has to offer, its definately an experience you will have a hard time forgeting.  I would hope that the ethic could be maintained and appreciated but to accomplish this we need to be able to communicate and at this time the access forces people to communicate which is a tribute to how well this area has been brought to the climbing community. 

This has been a learned stance for me, like I opened this with, when I was first going there I too was onboard with road improvements and access.  Spending the time I did in Hueco taught me alot about access and impact.  Talking to hundreds of climbers from around the world and being that conversation was almost always centered around the topic of impact and access.  I got a pretty good impression of the general consensus of what the average climber deems appropriate and the biggest thing I got from thsoe conversations is that most climbers think climbing first, impact last.  The best way to change this is to communicate, hence this post.

I don't really expect every person to have the same views as I do but I hope that each and every climber has at least the level of respect for the rock as I have learned since becoming a developer.

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Cause you'll never know till you've got the bone.

One more thing, I do own a 4wd now, and if anyone want s to expereince this unique climbing crag and access is the primary issue shoot me a PM and I will try to help make your Homestead experience as great as it has been for me over the last 8 years.

p.s.  I got a new crag that is 2wd access that I am eyeing for further development and good news is, its about 40 miles closer to Phoenix than Homestead.  If you are intrested in development and want to get involved shoot me a pm or track me down in the gym sometime.  I am looking for a motivated crew to do this with.  Look for some teaser pics just after xmas...

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Cause you'll never know till you've got the bone.

I am in the same boat as tryhard. I have been to the Homestead once, and will give it another chance one of these days. But the fact that it is a bit over 2 hours (from Scottsdale) to the road, before even starting the 20 minute 4x4 road, which gets you to the parking area, still putting you a 30 minutes hike away (if you are an ironman) from the worthy climbing that I've heard is up on the top walls.

When it takes me more time, by an hour, more gas, and more hiking effort, I usually opt for other areas. Yes, I've heard there are hard routes at the Homestead, but hell, I can be warmed up and getting prepped for Crank Call at the Asylum in the amount of time it takes for me to just get to the cliffs at the Homestead.

I'd be there a hell of a lot more if there was a paved, big ass 2x2 road that dropped me off right over the tops of the cliffs on Tufa City or whatever its called.

That is why I haven't been back there-- because I'd rather spend the extra 2 hours I save, if day tripping, actually CLIMBING, rather than dealing with logistics.